Информатор Дэвид Груш и крушение НЛО в Италии в 1933 году
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Posts like these are the reason I still read this sub. Real, in depth research and critical thinking skills on full display. I stg 95% of people will just take anything that anybody says at face value if it fits their preconceived notions.
One of the purported «bombshells» coming out of Grusch’s interviews was his revelation that Mussolini’s government retrieved a crashed UFO/UAP in 1933, and that in the closing months of the war in 1944/45, the US military recovered the wreckage/craft thanks to a tip by Pope Pius XII.
Of course for those of you who have been at this for a long time, you know this isn’t a revelation at all, as this story has been circulating in ufological circles for two decades. For a lot of folks however this is probably a new story, and even for those who are aware of it, you might have only come across it in the last couple of years with the publishing of the Mussolini docs on Black Vault by well-known Italian Ufologist Roberto Pinotti ( [LINK ](https://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/the-ufo-files-of-mussolini-fascist-ufo-files-by-roberto-pinotti/) )
and multiple posts here on Reddit repeating some of the stories. But there has been A LOT of erroneous information being spread and repeated by several online bloggers, especially Christopher Sharp of «Liberation Times» ( [LINK](https://www.liberationtimes.com/home/disclosure-road-leads-to-rome) ) and that annoying HowandWhys page that is always spamming Reddit. This includes the often repeated story that two Nordic aliens were recovered from the crash, and were initially thought to be Germans. It’s also been repeated that it was a bell-shaped craft, possibly inspiring the «Glocke» of Nazi UFO lore. Even more concerning, some of this dubious information appears to have made its way into Grusch’s account. For that reason I think it’s very important to take a look at the historical context of how the story of 1933 UFO crash first appeared, and how it has changed over the last 20 years.
The story began in 1996, when several prominent ufologists in Italy, including Pinotti began receiving photocopies of hundreds of government documents purported to be from the 1930s from an anonymous source. They documented numerous sightings beginning in 1931, and discussed the supposed crash and recovery of a vehicle near Milan in 1933. There were also quite a few documents about a 1936 sighting of a cigar shaped UFO with several small classic flying saucers. Additionally, the documents talked about a secret group called «Gabinetto RS/33,» established by Mussolini, and headed up by famous Italian scientist and inventor of the radio, Guglielmo Marconi. So basically an Italian version of MJ-12 (and I think the similarity with how the MJ-12 documents also mysteriously appeared by being anonymously sent to ufologists should not go unnoticed).
Over the next few years, Pinotti and others, including his colleague and later co-author, Alfredo Lissoni, continued receiving documents from their anonymous source whom they began to refer to as Mr. X. Some of these were not just photocopies, but also original documents, and both chemical and historical analysis suggested that they were consistent with documents from the 1930s. There was however still controversy among Italian ufologists over their authenticity.
In early 2001, Pinotti and Lissoni began publishing about the so-called «Fascist UFO Files» in Italy. Later that year, the story broke in the English-speaking UFO press when a translation of one of Lissoni’s articles was reprinted in the long-running British magazine *Flying Saucer Review*. Here is the text of that 2001 article, along with FSR editor Gordon Creighton’s commentary on it:
[New Documents «Will Revolutionize UFOlogy»!
by Alfredo Lissoni](http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1885.htm)
You’ll notice that there is nothing in the original Mussolini documents about recovered bodies, Nordic or otherwise. Nothing about Pope Pius or about the US recovering the craft during the war. All of that seems to come from a very dubious source, a guy named Billy Brophy, who claimed that his father William Brophy, Sr., a USAF pilot in the 1949s and 50s was a witness to several UFO related events. He has been cited as a source by the above mentioned Christopher Sharpe and even more recently his stories have been used by Jaques Vallee and Paola Harris in their book on the Trinity crash.
Brophy’s story however has changed quite a bit over the last 20 years. He first appeared by writing a series of letters in 2003 to the same British periodical, *Flying Saucer Review*. In his letters he discusses the two Nordic bodies, but says that they were the bodies recovered from the Roswell crash, not the Italian crash as later writers would say. In fact he only mentions the Italian crash in a passing Post Script. Here are copies of those letters:
https://imgur.com/a/vxpebdL
https://imgur.com/a/44PJ1AF
https://imgur.com/a/2K1Tvrm
https://imgur.com/a/EtWRubP
The letters mostly discuss how his father witnessed a crash in Mexico in 1950 and have nothing to do with the Italy incident. And some of the stuff in his letters make him come across as a bit nutty. However in 2010, he was invited to a UFO conference in Milan by Pinotti where he began changing his story, and claim that his father had knowledge that the UFO crash in 1933 also contained Nordics, and that Pope Pius XI I told Roosevelt about it and that the Americans had retrieved it during the war. He also is the first to suggest that it was bell-shaped. Here is a summary of his presentation at that conference that appeared in a UFO publication later that year:
https://imgur.com/a/oKp3thz
For more on the problems with Brophy see the recent article by Douglas Johnson:
[Crash Story File: The Morphing Fantasies of Billy Brophy About His Airman Father](https://douglasjohnson.ghost.io/crash-story-file-the-morphing-fantasies-of-billy-brophy-about-his-airman-father/)
Unfortunately, Pinotti seems to have taken Brophy’s story at face value as he has now incorporated it into his recent work including the 2020 article he wrote for Black Vault.
This brings us to the latest whistleblower revelations. First Lue Elizondo began referring obliquely to the 1933 crash in several podcasts, right after his meeting with Italian ufologists (including Pinotti) that was shown on the episode of his show.
Now Grusch is repeating this story, including the American retrieval, except that Pope Pius XI is now Pope Pius XII. He is making it sound like this is coming from classified information that he was shown, but it appears that he is simply talking about the Fascist UFO Files from the 90s and even more concerning, he is including elements of Brophy’s completely unsourced and highly dubious stories. Fortunately, he hasn’t mentioned the Nordic bodies yet, but if he does we have a real problem. My guess is that he heard about this from Elizondo who got it from Pinotti and probably saw the same Mussolini documents that have been available online for many years. In my opinion, this is a serious red flag that everyone needs to take into account, because as soon as anyone starts looking into the source of these stories (i.e. Brophy) this whole thing is going to blow up in a very embarrassing way.
Edit: Corrected letter links from Brophy
Edit 2 — Apparently in his la Parisian interview he refers to the Italian craft as bell-like, another detail that comes from Brophy. As far as I’m concerned that’s the nail in the coffin.
Thank you for the concise review.
I commented this in another thread on high strangeness but I wonder does this have much of an effect on the timeline, it would at least explain the change of popes between stories:
Great research pulling all the different instances of the same topic in. One thing to remember though and not meant to be an «actually» or if you mentioned it…
In 1933, if the Pope mentioned it to Roosevelt, it would have been Pope Pius XI.
However, if the Pope tipped the Americans off about the craft again towards the end of the war to aid retrieval, it would have been Pope Pius XII, as Pius XI died in 1939 while the war was still ongoing.
An absolutely fantastic post that puts into words exactly what has been bugging me about that TV interview, and why I felt embarrassed for Grush watching it. When he talks about Italy and Roswell, one gets the distinct impression he is not speaking from access to classified material but from old, dubious, long-debunked UFO lore. Is his source classified material or is it the same old UFO tall tales?
Thank you for posting!
This is definitely very damning. The only favorable explanation I can think of is that Grusch witnessed some classified information regarding an UFO retrieved from Italy with cooperation from the Italian government. Then he did some independent research on the internet regarding this and that’s when he found these more outlandish information. And when recounting what he knows he simply laid out everything he learned about the incident instead of only revealing the stuff he has learned from official government documents.
But even if this is true it tells us two things, firstly he is not a thorough and careful person, I know I would be way more thorough and careful in reviewing all my sources and making sure I am only saying things to the media that I can back up with actual evidence and documentations. Secondly it speaks poorly of his ability to investigate rumors and determine their validity, which I think is just as damning.
Excellent analysis. However, there is a possibility that David was told the story through a different channel — government documents which may or may not available to public. If he is not a ufologist before joining UAP task force and a pure Intel analyst, he would believe this is something interesting to disclose — his friends (luo and melon) would recommend him to use such because it is already in the public domain so it is not classified by US agencies in nature.
This has been around at least since 2018. I’m Italian if anyone wants more info..
https://www.facebook.com/ilcuriosonevarese/photos/a.996412873767424/2181489668593066/?type=3&mibextid=cr9u03
https://storiedimenticate.it/ufo-milano/
Hmmm. It’s quite convenient there would be a hole in the story, but whether or not that is true I’m unsure. There’s a chance of the game of «telephone» here too, though. Often times pathological liars such as what Brophy seems to be are so caught up in their delusions that it gets linked to things they’ve actually heard. Likely Brophy heard about the Mussolini report, did his own research into it as some time before, and his addiction to lying made him fabricate some of the facts present in the actual report as a few embellishments on top of an otherwise true story. Brophy’s goal in such a conference can be deemed malignant at least in regards to using it as an opportunity to further his own narcissistic feelings as a pathological liar.
However, that doesn’t inherently make it untrue. Occam’s razor states that often times the simplest explanation is the correct one. I think that’s exceptionally correct when it comes to Brophy’s «accounts» at this conference and past ones he had. Yet the reason it doesn’t inherently make it untrue is pathological liars often get by rooting as much of their fabricated stories in reality as possible. If Brophy had done a little research into it previously, as well as actually having some inside source by association as people in this lifestyle often *can*, it’s quite possible the true story lies outside of all the embellished nonsense. And with said embellished nonsense we have not seen Grusch mention it, which is a positive in his favor. Along with the fact an American recovery of such a device in post-WWII Italy seems the most likely course for such an object to take given the time period and who their ally just was… I’m inclined to believe it to be a very likely scenario a pathological liar just happened to get correct as they often do.
NOTE — Apparently in his la Parisian interview he refers to the Italian craft as bell-like, another detail that comes from Brophy. As far as I’m concerned that’s the nail in the coffin.
This is assuming that the Italians did not recover a craft in the 1930s that was not later recovered by the Americans. It’s possible that Brophy is repeating hearsay and some elements of that hearsay is true while remaining ignorant of the facts at hand — naming a false pope and the correct details of the retrieval — maybe an account that his father had heard as hearsay himself earlier.
It’s not impossible that a craft crashed, was recovered during wartime, and the Pope was involved. It’s not impossible that no bodies were retrieved, and that people spoke about the incident to others, too. Brophy can be a lying grifter while still having been told an inkling of a half-truth at some point.
The question is whether Grusch has actual confirmation of all this or whether he is operating off hearsay as well. Maybe Grusch has seen evidence that points to the account he told the news being the truth.
Excellent post. Very informative, rich in content, and down-to-Earth. The text is well put-together, with enough ‘batshit crazy’ claims to put people on the edge of their sit, but also skeptic when skepticism is without a doubt the sensible option.
My take on it: probably something highly secret did happen in Italy in 1933. Something which, as far as we can tell, we have zero reasons to conclude it was a UFO, let alone had aliens involved. How we got there though it is thanks to colorful storytellers over the years. And if Grusch really proceeds further with this story himself, he better have hard evidence to present to the public, otherwise he will prove himself to be gullible.
A great well thought through post, thank you OP.
It doesn’t tell us conclusively if Grusch is telling the truth or not, but it gives us something to watch out for.
STOP
The Italians were using an English made typewriter?
So you’re telling me that Grusch is talking about stuff that is readily available to the public? You mean it’s not NEW? >!Le gasp.!<
If they’re so advanced, why are they always crashing? And if these aliens or whatever are so great, why are they hiding? I don’t think society would collapse because of aliens existing because I think most people already believe in extra terrestrial life.
Unless there’s some reason we would revolt if we really knew who they were and what they were up to. Idk
There is NO WAY that any secrets of this type would have stayed hidden through WW2 and the ongoing chaos of Italy changing sides once the Germans started losing…. So it’s a non story. Probably done to hide a visit from some foreign friends
As I said on another sub, this is a fantastic bit of research. Looks like Grusch is just parroting a bunch of ufo myths as a lot of us suspected. When his stories fit so closely with the widely accepted ufo lore I just knew there was something fishy about him.
Beware false prophets.
I knew this guy was too good to be true
I wouldn’t expect the U.S. confiscation of the wreckage to be mentioned in the Italian documents. There is likely some U.S. documentation that has never been seen publicly. Grusch has surely seen evidence of the retrieval more substantial than what is currently available to ufologists. It would be reckless of him to make the claim on national TV if all he had was what’s in the public domain.
The real intriguing aspect of the Italian crash is the potential role of Corso in the U.S. confiscation of the wreckage. Surely it’s not a coincidence that Corso—*of all people*—was head of U.S. intelligence operations in Italy during the time of the wreckage confiscation. It seems likely he would have known about it. Possibly, he organized it.
In his book, Corso makes it seem as is he kept encountering aspects of the UFO matter during his career through sheer happenstance, but it could be that there was no happenstance at all and he was an inside player in the retrieval program from the very beginning.
The ability to research Corso’s role in the Italian retrieval is hampered, of course, by the fact that he is no longer with us. It could be, though, that any U.S. documentation on the retrieval would shed light on Corso’s role, if he had one.
If it came from «IL Duce» and his bootlicking minions I’m sure it has high confidence written all over it ???
The problemo seems to be that the only sources seem to be Italian population of 1930 who also believed in witches and all manner of wives tails. The other people are almost all clinical. Then you got Howlin Hawley, Josh Hawley. You remember him from January 6th. No, there isn’t one single person that’s believable. If Carl Sagan said he saw aliens I would believe him.
Didn’t Nikola Tesla invent the radio?
What are the chances the program and events Grusch has knowledge of actually existed but Brophy lied about what little he knew, making Grusch look wrong? I still think it’s possible Brophy had tiny fractions of details right and made up the rest. Most lies have an element of truth. Until and unless Grusch presents hard evidence or others go on record and we crack the silence, it’s all going to look like manure, imo.
The original post is very biased, but cleverly disguised as skeptical. To me, your agenda is clear: to smeer Grusch by association with Brophy. However, since you fail to actually prove such an association, the only thing you can present is a smeer post by hypothetical proximity to association. The sheer amount of doubt you cast over Brophy has NOTHING to do with Grusch, but you are hoping that you’ll be able to convince readers that it does and plant doubt in their minds. Judging by many of the comments here, I think you have succeeded in your little operation.
However, critical analysis of your post boils it down to «Maybe in a possible scenario, if Grusch eventually says this very specific thing, then we can perhaps establish a hypothetical connection between Grusch and this bullshit guy I just exposed as bullshit and then it will be fair to jump to the conclusion that Grusch is bullshit too, so it’s almost as if we can kinda jump to it already, isn’t it? Red flag, anyone? Yeah! Red flag! What? Flags? Plural? Why not? Let’s just say that the red flags keep piling up! Red flags! Red flags!»
That flag is not red. It’s not even a flag at all.
I invite all readers to take another look at the original post with this idea in mind: the original poster proposes an accusation of a red flag but fails to prove the existence of one. The original poster attempts (perhaps even succeeds) to expose a different person (Brophy) as a professional bullshitter and uses similarity and unproven chain association (maybe X talked to Y and Y talked to Z and Z talked to G) to try to smeer Grusch. Additionally, explicit differences in both stories (different Popes) are not viewed (as they should) as an indication of Brophy and Grusch having different sources (in terms of credibility and quality) or at least of Grusch not having Brophy as a source, but are instead twisted to make Grusch seem guilty of another person’s proposed lack of credibility.
Anyone wanting to learn how to make a smeer campaign need to look no further than this post: this is textbook image cheapening by unproven association.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks
The Guardian: US Spy Operation that Manipulates Social Media
When we see posts that are detracting from the story of a highly decorated and credible whistleblower who came out through the correct channels of legislation and made statements under oath and has been backed up by several Senators/Congresspeople and many other decorated officials, and most all the comments in the post are backing up the detractions towards Grusch’s credibility, we must ask ourselves why?
I’m sorry I don’t get it, Grusch didn’t speak of bodies or Nordic occupants, and he mentioned the correct Pope, what’s this «dubious information» related by him?
This is the most overthinking that I have ever heard in my life. When you go to the doctor and he tells you to take aspirin for pain — do you tell him that it’s bullshit because this information is available on Google? This is essentially what you’re doing — you’re questioning something only because it doesn’t sound like it’s coming from some unopened to anyone vault. Additionally Grusch is speaking about being denied access to the information and calling for investigation. The nature of the beast is that some of the info will be confirmed wrong. All of the OPs point is quite neurotic. I’ve seen some folks here say that the Italian UFO never happened at all, and others who say that UFOs don’t exist, yet spend their time on forums dedicated to the subject.
For me it’s awesome that Grusch’s stories overlap with our general take on what happened in history. The thing about history is also that it’s extremely difficult to uncover and subjective like hell. Anyone who studied the Second World War will tell you that.
Nevertheless, I appreciate the post and the discussion!
when did the pope enter the story? what was originally cited as the source for that info?